I feel the need to have a good long talk with you all about a subject that is very difficult to talk about, but is REALLY important that people understand very clearly.
That subject is rape. I know, it's not a pleasant subject to have to blog about, but I think it is needed. I think not only do I need to speak up, but if you are reading this, and you agree with me, you need to blog/talk about it too, so that we can make this as clear as possible to as many people as possible.
Now let me begin, this is NOT about the current case around Matthew Johns, though that case has been the catalyst for much discussion, debate and even argument. And that discussion, debate and argument is the catalyst for me writing this blog post tonight. Also, you need to know that despite my very vehement statements on this matter, I am not angry or irate. I am simply making it very, very clear as to where the line in the sand is on this matter, and it's not something that I believe falls into "grey".
Let me make something crystal clear for everyone.
Sex, without consent, is RAPE.
It doesn't matter who the victim is, be they male, female, straight, gay, young, old, virgin, promiscuous, married, single and no matter what their relationship to the perpetrator is. Yes, a husband can rape a wife. A client can rape a prostitute. A person who has had consensual sex with someone in the past can be raped by that person.
It's a very simple concept to grasp. I'll say it again. Sex, without consent, is RAPE.
The discussion that I've seen (and been part of) on Twitter is around the fact that it seems that some people, and sadly some of those are women, seem to discount an accusation of rape if the victim is promiscuous. Or to paraphrase one woman, who calls herself a "community activist", "In my day she'd just be called a skanky slut." So by this woman (and several of her supporters), the fact that the alleged victim is promiscuous negates her claim of sexual assault.
Again, this is not about the individual allegation of that case, it's about the attitude that a woman who is promiscuous or who has consented to having sex with others, must not really be a victim of rape.
I was absolutely stunned to hear a supposedly educated woman have this attitude. What year are we living in? Do people still believe the "she asked for it" line? Are there people out there that still believe that women are merely the objects of sexual gratification for men, mere vessels for semen? I thought we cleared that up in the bloody 80's for God's sake.
As I posted to Twitter earlier this evening, let me make this clear. If a woman is in a room with ten men, and she consents to sex with nine of those men, but refuses the tenth, and is forced to have sex with him anyway, that is RAPE.
It's time for people to get over that archaic attitude that there are any grey areas around rape. This is why so many women (and men) do not report rape. Or why so many back out during the investigations, because they are put under such scrutiny. It's why so many women in particular do not realise that the sexual abuse they have suffered is actually rape. They blame themselves, or make excuses. They say "I didn't put up enough of a fight." or "I slept with him before, so it doesn't matter if I didn't want to this time."
So long as these attitudes are perpetuated, perpetrators will be getting away with rape. They will make excuses why it is ok. They will say "What happens on the footy trip, stays on the footy trip." They will say "Oh she's just a skanky slut, I can do whatever I like to her."
I want you to think about this. What if it were you? What if someone didn't believe you if you said you were raped, because they said you were a slut? What if it were your daughter, your sister, your wife, girlfriend, mother, aunt, your friend? NOBODY deserves rape. Ever, even if they're a collossal bitch who sleeps with whole football teams. Nobody deserves to be violated, to be forced sexually. NOBODY.
Say it again people. Please.
Sex, without consent, is RAPE.
Update: A Twitter friend shared this excellent article with me. The Epidemic of Not Rape.
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29 comments:
I agree with you - it's as simple as that. I don't know why people don't get it?!
that woman on twitter who made that comment blew my mind. How any adult woman living in this society still thinks that way is beyond me.
Kath, very well said and well written, big love to you.
well written! although i know you weren't writing about the matthew johns situation, i have seen a lot of comments on facebook today, all from women, saying "poor matty johns... such a naughty boy" and also discounting the credibility of the girl as to why she only came out now and that most was consensual. she was a 19yr old! that's a baby!
when i was 18, i was out with a group of friends and one of our group was approached by a league player (who had been in the media that week as his wife had just had their first child). the player would not leave the 18yo girl alone to the point that he and his thug of a friend got in their car, following us up the street once we left the pub and continued to try and persuade the girl to get into his car. he was absolutely relentless. however, we weren't exceptionally drunk and there was a large, supportive group that helped to protect her - he eventually left. had she been drunk and alone, it may have been a different story. i'm not saying league players are all the same nor am i saying they are the only people to do it.
i think a lot of the girls get themselves into situations by being intimidated. they may not have said no as such, but have felt no other option than to go along with the situation as it unfolds. whilst educating the young footballers on what consent is, young girls should also be taught how to get out of situations such as this.
i used to be a high school teacher and was continually dumbstruck on the attitude of teenagers to sex and rape. it was overwhelming. on the same topic, the school i worked at also used to send boys who disrespected females to the broncos practices to be talked to on how to respect women. how ironic.
thanks sleepydumpling for writing about this issue. altho it was a horrific event that occurred i new zealand, one positive is that it has brought all of this out into the light.
Good article. I'd suggest bookmarking it so you can refer to it and link here in future.
Sums up the response to all the victim-blaming and slut-shaming that's been going on today.
I wonder if you have no changed your mind about the discussion yesterday on Twitter? According to Andrew Johns she DID ask for it.
“Do people still believe the "she asked for it" line?”
His wife knows everything, the Police know everything, - no charges laid.
This is the point I was trying to make yesterday, that it wasn’t rape. Of course rape is horrible, but that’s not the discussion.
I was a little shocked and amazed at everyone's over reaction to the story myself, women crying "OMG I'm going to be sick" and unfollowing me, and removing themselves from Facebook. (This from a bi-polarwoman who actually puts in her complete street address, sheesh! How safe is that?)
Perhaps my experience gives me a different perspective?
Interestingly enough, I gained eight new followers who all supported my stand. To quote one: Young educated and with no experience oflife in the real world – just ideals founded on nothing but illusions.
What surprised me most was the personal attacks on me, the internet is a nasty place when it turns like that.
I was called a moron, a rape enabler, and generally mocked and abused, and worst of all, which really stung, my community work (of which you have NO idea about) was also jeered. How dare you? *incredulous.
And now I find myself being quoted yet again “Or to paraphrase one woman, who calls herself a "community activist", "In my day she'd just be called a skanky slut." So by this woman (and several of her supporters), the fact that the alleged victim is promiscuous negates her claim of sexual assault.” (BTW, ONE LAST TIME: IT WASN’T SEXUAL ASSAULT FFS!)
What seems to have upset most (young) people, is that I used the term ‘skanky slut”. So funny. So moral.
What Andrew Johns and the rest did was maybe immoral, certainly not illegal. That's between he and his wife.
I thought I made the points that she was very young, very silly and naive, and should have looked after herself better by not getting into that situation, but the facts remain that a) it wasn’t rape, b) Police have investigated and finally c) no charges were laid.
Now seven years later Andrew Johns has lost his career, his reputation and the respect of his community. Seven years later! I’m not even a fan of his and I deplore that idiot character he has with the black mo, but still…
Keep up the moral chestbeating, you do it very well. And stick to the discussion. No one condones rape, to suggest otherwise is plain wrong.
To personally attack me like this on your blog is pretty low.
Firstly "Patty", it was Matthew Johns, not Andrew Johns (would help if you got your facts clear on who it actually was), secondly, as far as I am concerned, 11 footballers co-ercing a 19 year old girl into having sex with them all IS rape (19 years old is no age to make such decisions) even if she doesn't realise it fully, and finally, you outed yourself here, never once have you had your name or details mentioned by me.
But finally, you are an embarrassment to womankind, your archaic, frankly disgusting attitudes should be challenged at every single step of the way.
One day, you are going to have to face your attitude first hand, when it is someone you care about on the receiving end of this kind of sexual abuse. Because statistically speaking, you can't avoid it. It is so prevalent that ALL of us will have our lives touched by this kind of disgusting sexual abuse in some way or another.
Actually let me rephrase that. Like Matthew Johns, and the other footballers who have the attitude that women are there for them to just do as they please, You are an embarrassment to HUMANKIND. You should not be involved in any community activity, that's for sure.
I personally only can pray that you don't have daughters.
I'd like to thank everyone who understands the seriousness of this issue, and who takes up the opportunity to speak out about it. Until we get the message through that this kind of behaviour and attitude is NOT OK, then women are still at risk of being raped, and then shamed by narrow-minds like "Patty".
Every woman is someone's mother/sister/daughter and should be treated as such, with respect.
Dear Patty,
Dissenting opinion is not personal attack. The names, yep, that is but that people are discussing your input - that's just fair game.
I have not weighed in on this discussion on twitter because it is very complex and emotional for me. I am a victim of rape. I am a victim of sexual violence. I am conflicted about the whole story because I don't know it! I can reflect and say "I wouldn't have gone on tv" because it's personal and because of the volatility of the story having repercussions on my personal life. At the end of the day, that's my decision and I have to respect the woman involved for her decisions (I don't even know her name?) If I don't respect them, I am getting into the NOT MY FUCKING BUSINESS zone.
Victim shaming is NOT ON. That's why a majority of abuse and assault cases are never reported. That's why I NEVER REPORTED. TWICE.
You hit the nail on the head with your comment about no matter how promiscuous a woman is, it does not mean she is a fucking buffet. Let's all applaud the boys for having "healthy" sexual appetites, but the SLUT must repent!
She should have kept her panties on! Of course! It was HER RESPONSIBILITY to not get raped.
I just can't believe people think this way. I seriously can't.
I applaud you for your stance on this subject and it is as simple as that - Sex without Consent is Rape - that's it that's where it ends. Taking personal responsibility for your actions and never being coerced to "go along" takes courage and intestinal fortitude. Out dancing on the disco floor being surrounded (completely uninvited) by four strange large tall men trying to grind their pelvic region into me was only stopped by me driving my elbows into two of them very HARD and advising these said men that a girl likes to be asked to dance and likes the right of refusal.
I was alone having been to a function at that club earlier and was just enjoying the music and dancing by myself happily, needless to say I left immediately after that because I felt under threat.
Complete agreement with you on this topic. Quite fed up with lack of clarity and the deliberate fuzziness created. Again personal responsibility needs to be taken by all parties. If the word NO is uttered at any point - it stops - dead in the water.
Dearest Kath,
Your blog about the sensitive issue of rape I agree with 110%.
I am a victim of it and because so I won't leave my name on here for public viewing.
I have been a victim more than once and neither time did I say yes or ask for it. Neither time had I been drinking, neither time was I wearing anything promiscuous (unless you call jeans, t-shirt, jumper and sneakers promiscuous on a size 24 girl) and never had I misled them into thinking I wanted it.
I have known a few people that have "cried" rape after they have had sex with someone and I know for a fact that rape was certainly not the case. One in particular ripped her clothes off infront of 10 or so people in a room and jumped a guy right there infront of everyone, got up after she finished, put her clothes back on and walked away. An hour later the police arrived after she rang them to say she was raped. Unfortunately for her she was charged with falsely accusing someone of rape and there was evidence to prove it by way of video that was being shot of the birthday party and the 10 witnesses (including me) who denied her claim. To say that she lost all respect of her friends for good after that is an understatement. We never saw her again.
I despise all for making those sorts of allegations when they know that it is not so. They have never been raped and don't have a clue as to how it feels. I hope they never do find out.
Rape leaves you with a feeling of violation, fear, hatred, mistrust and many more emotions that I just wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
I am one of the ones that has never reported it and probably never will because I was not only scared, but I had no way of proving that I didn't want it. How do you prove that without witnesses?
The first time my friend and I were threatened by her housemate and his 7 friends with knives. It was a case of "do what you are told, keep quiet or die". Which would you choose?
The second time I was attacked in a dark park while at a get together with friends as I was walking back to my car. I never saw the guys face, he wore fully covering clothes from head to toe (gloves and all) and wore a rubber.
My family don't have a clue as to what has happened to me and never shall I tell them. The only person that knows is my husband and I know that should I ever see any of those guys again when he is with me, he'd most certainly beat the life out of them for it.
It took me a long long time to trust anyone again (especially men) and venture out into the big bright world.
9 years later and I still bear the scars emotionally and fear walking through parks or dark places at night on my own or with my children. My house windows and doors are all locked night and day. I have a trained guard dog as a pet and always have my car doors locked when inside it driving along the roads. I still have vivid nightmares and have regularly attending counselling to help me deal with it all.
The damage rape does is just immense and I hope never to endure it again.
Thank you Kath for bringing this subject up.
Lots of love coming to you.
Wow, you don't give up do you "Kathy"?
Now I am "an embarrassment to HUMANKIND."
In capitals. Sheesh mate, seriously, you are so devout in this aren't you? Sorry I got his name wrong, I don't care that much to be honest.
What a lot of moral wowsers here.
And I love this bit: "But finally, you are an embarrassment to womankind, your archaic, frankly disgusting attitudes" gees lighten up.
Actually, I think I have a very open mind. I don't think all footballers are rapists, and I don't think all young women are angels. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. You on the other hand are crying so loudly that you can't hear the rest of the conversation.
What year is this? Our society attitudes are getting narrower and narrower each year. I doubt any of you would have survived the swinging seventies, lol.
If it helps you,I agree with you a about rape. To the young woman that wrote of her own experiences, I hold you in my arms, that must have been a terrbile situation.
But back to you "Kathy" a question: what have you ever done for your community? Look beyond your own walls and get out into the real world.
For you to write this, just shows me you are completley unable to have a full and frank discussion without name calling, demeaning and putting me down, and persoanlly attacking me.
"You are an embarrassment to HUMANKIND." Indeed.
No I don't give up. Not when there are people out there that are opening the way for others to get away with rape.
Firstly - you not only get MATTHEW Johns name wrong, but then you get MINE wrong. Hmmm, something tells me you're not the sharpest crayon in the box, are you?
Secondly, we're not the ones who are pulling the moral bent. YOU are the one who made the suggestion that a woman who is promiscuous (and therefore in charge of her own sexuality) is a skanky slut who couldn't possibly have been a rape victim. So I think if you stop and think (is that possible?) you're the one that is pulling morals.
Yes, in the "swinging seventies" the bitch would have been in the kitchen getting the blokes their beers like a woman fucking should, and then a smack in the face if she didn't open her legs the minute any man demanded her to.
And finally, I don't need to justify to an obvious narrowmind as yourself as to what I do for the community, I don't live my life to big up myself to others, but I can say that I'm not the one touting myself as a community activist and then spouting disgustingly archaic "she asked for it" statements all over the place.
Look around you. Is there one other person commenting on this blog post that agrees with you? No. Big deal, you got seven new followers on twitter. Seven more rednecks who hold the same attitude as you - that's not something to be proud of. I wonder how many you lost, and how many others followed people who are speaking against you just to get a balanced, rational, healthy view of a woman's rights.
Again, I pray you don't have daughters. And if you do, I pray that they have another woman in their life to turn to if they find themselves victims of sexual violence/abuse.
You can't seem to provide any other argument than to suggest that you're the one who is morally open minded and others are not, (which is clearly not the case) so I'm not going to be bothered discussing this any further with you.
Woops! Stuffed up again. I simply saw "Dearest Kath," so figured that was your name. Whatever. And the seventies weren't like that at all, good grief woman! *rolls eyes.
And just for the record, no, I don't have daughters, I miscarried one, and the other died in vitro. Seems I just can't make a good one if I try.
At least I don't call people names, (you're not the sharpest crayon in the box, are you?) but hey, this is your blog you can do what you want, right?
Re-invent history even. *and btw, lots and lots of people are agreeing with me on radio and Courier Mail. Ha. Conversation ends here.
Patty - one of the downsides of the internet. Even small minded idiots like yourself get to share their opinion with the world.
This is sleepydumplings blog. She is allowed to express whatever views on whatever subject she feels like. At no point in the entry did it state that any of this was about you. I don't see why you couldn't just leave it instead choosing to make it about you. None of your justifications make sense and judging from the way you write, I probably wouldn't give them much credit anyway. People who end arguments with "Ha" don't exactly sound overly mature.
I completely agree with the post. "Grey" rape is anything but.
Patty, if you're going to argue, please try to convince people of the merits of your views. I know that's not what everybody here's been doing, but whether you are or not you appear to be a pigheaded idiot with no tolerance for others' views - and I honestly want to believe that you're not. So why the victim shaming? The behaviour you've been engaging in IS victim shaming and rape enabling. Can you not see that?
If you can't convince other people of the merits of your views, it may be worth reconsidering them.
here is what i think .no matter how many times these numb skulls get told to behave they just dont get it.They are young men in their 20's with money athletic bodies fame and time on their hands.They are the elite at their sport and get lots of things put at their feet.They also suffer from hero whorship and think they are bullet proof .This is not just a rugby thing,its in all sports or where th
Or any place where there is power. Theres no real excuse. This lastest thing will blow over and all will be forgiven until the next drunken brawl or sex scandel. Agh this sporting life..
I agree with you Dieter. Somehow we need to break that whole culture of mere sportsmen being demi-gods. After all, what is so important about them? So, they can run or kick or throw. Big deal!
I wanted to comment and then, after reading what had been said, found myself speechless.
I can't believe anyone sane would ever, ever think rape was something someone could ever deserve. The very idea stuns me.
I don't go out as much as I used to but I have clear memories. I have naturally big boobs. I'm talking H cup. This always seemed to make me an instant target, guys felt it was ok to grab my boobs, grope them, try to shove beer bottles between them - I kid you not, and somehow because I had big boobs, I clearly would want this sort of attention?
I've often joked that no matter what I wear I always have cleavage, but even if I were wearing a low-cut top, that doesn't give anyone the right to grab me! Or attempt to unclothe me, in a club, which happened. I stopped to talk to a friend, turned my head, felt something and turned my head back - a guy had seen fit to start undoing buttons on my shirt.
I mean what the hell?
But then, I've got big boobs, I must be asking for it right?
Jeez.
Another example of the sexualisation and proprietorship of women. If a woman is in any way sexually visible (and owning a pair of large breasts is sexually visible) then she is public property for men to do as they please.
Just to let you all know something as my readers, I have just discovered that "dieter" is either Patty or a friend of Patty's that she has dragged in here. However, the post is actually contradicting all she has been saying earlier.
I clicked on "Dieter's" link to see if he had a blog that I could read, and this is what I was led to:
http://pattycamwatchers.blogspot.com/
You can follow Dieter's link yourself if you don't believe me. If "he" doesn't delete his thread before you get a chance. I won't delete it.
I think perhaps this is not the first time she has been trolling blogs and either faking accounts or roping friends in to make comments on her behalf.
Please be aware that some people misrepresent themselves or deliberately drag others into things on the internet, and in most cases they are found eventually. If you have troll-like comments on your own blogs, it is worth clicking through links to check and outing these people where possible.
They need to be held accountable for spreading falseness across the internet.
What is your problem Sleepingdumpling ? First you completely agree with my input then you for some odd reason decided to check up on me. While I am glad you bothered to take the time doing that I cannot see the relevance in this. Yes Patty is a friend of mine I am glad to say. She did not invite me to read or comment on your blog I found the link and thought I would express an opinion (one you agreed with until you found out I was a friend of Patty’s) No one asked me to write anything here.
My information is available for anyone to read I don’t hind behind fake names, what’s there is me. Why on earth would I delete a link to pattycam watchers,last I heard its still a free country and its only a link much like yours. If you want to see my web page your welcome to look http://www.cdieter.bravehost.com/
My opinion represents my opinion only not those of hers and you should note I did not agree with patty, I’m sure you don’t always agree with your friends ‘or do you’?. I hope you do know that in a week this we only be a memory.Just what falseness did I spread across the internet? Before you accuss me take a look at yourself. Thanks for taking the time to skim over this. Now I have said my piece. You will note I did not get into personal attacks ,I leave that to others.
I skim over nothing. I just find it very strange that someone who's involved with that particular blog, which has a post aimed at "To Kath: In your FACE!!" would suddenly be over here adding to the discussion, particularly when there is evidence of trolling all over the place connected to Patty.
I'll believe it's not trolling when I see the proof. And I will continue to call out connections whenever I find them. Transparency is vital and you will see no evidence of my behaving in the manner that I have called out.
No further discussion will be entered into on this matter.
Hi, just cruising through the blogosphere and came upon this post. Initially, thought this was very interesting and then all of the too-ing and fro-ing, and name calling...wow, call me a troll if you like but you guys all need to get out and breathe some fresh air a bit more. It's like a cat fight in here!
I agree in part with what you are saying. And I would like to hear the argument that can prove that sex without consent is not rape, as I agree that you are very right in just letting us know the definition of rape. You claim not to be talking about a specific case, yet make constant references to football teams, does rape not unfortunately happen in society not only on the football trip..? I would ask you, are you not just slicing off your piece of the mass media pie here?
There is no grey area? From the examples you gave in your non football unbiased blog, lets just say that a girl (never know it could even be a man, the girls might be on a netball trip) agrees to head back to the typical spot ‘the hotel room that night’ with 10 men from the same football team to have consensual sex. She, soon to be ‘the victim’ suddenly and within her rights decides that she does not want to have sex with the last man, soon to be ‘the predator’ after having consensual sex with the previous 9. The girl now becoming the victim, does not really put up a fight or make it clear (I’m sure they would all be under the effects of alcohol if not other substances) that she now does not want to have sex as she did before. Who is the blame here? In the victims mind rape has happened. This man does not and I think should not see himself as a predator. I ask what do we do here? The girl might not even be able to remember the last man that she had sex with, his name or even be able to pick him up out of the line up of 10 men. All 10 of the men or 9 men and one predator will believe that it was consensual, and victim will tell or how she was raped.
When society hears about a girl having sex with 9 men in a night what are they going to call her? You say victim they say slut, are they both not correct?
Daniel this topic does have bearing on that case, as it is what stirred up the debate. However, in that particular case, all the information is not clearly presented (where are the other team members? Who is telling the truth out of this so far? We don't know) so it is only inference.
However, in the whole culture of footballers and their attitudes towards women, it is clear this culture is breeding a very dangerous situation, where women are seen as sluts for being promiscuous but it is ok for men to be promiscuous. THAT is the issue that I have been trying to raise here. It's the act of instantly discrediting the woman's status because she is a "slut", but nobody calls a man names for being sexually promiscuous.
I am not anti-footballers. I LOVE soccer and AFL, but these codes have a far more healthy attitude to women generally speaking than league does. Not to say either are perfect, but as far as the general culture is concerned, it is clear that the problem is far less.
We need to be educating young people in both communicating clear consent and also responding immediately when someone is saying no. We need to educate young people that pressuring someone into sex is not healthy, and in most cases will lead to huge repercussions.
Hmm I know I am a little late to be weighing in on this discussion and quite frankly I have been staying away from this whole Johns affair because it is too emotive for me not to be angry for days on end.
BUT what I feel that I can contribute to this discussion is that I myself have worked with youth at risk for sometime now (YES a Lawyer and a community worker) and have frequently been shocked by the legal treatment of rape.
I think that if anyone REALLY wants to rest their moral judgment on the outcomes of legal proceedings (or worse police judgment to proceed) or whether the "law says so" they should get into a court room MUCH more frequently and really see what happens.
I have seen MANY young women who were legitimately raped and as Kath defines it DID NOT in anyway consent, in fact the last case that I worked on was a 14 year old who was giving birth to her step father's child who did not proceed with legal action (oh and by the way she has NEVER had the opportunity to even have a boyfriend or any past sexual encounters) because the experience was going to be too difficult to re-tell in front of strangers (and I supported this decision 100% because a court room is scary for most people let alone when you need to talk about where he put his hands and how you felt and what you both said).
Regularly women are deterred from taking action in these types of cases because the legal experience is harrowing and they may need to stand in court and talk about ALL of their past sexual encounters. The law is still behind the times, past sexual encounters are irrelevant but in legal proceedings you are guaranteed to have to discuss everything down to whether he had a mole on his penis, was he circumcised, how long would you say his penis actually was? How long was his penis in you?
I mean up until only a few years ago it was impossible to be charged with rape if the victim was your wife.
I think that discussions where people scrutinise whether a girl MIGHT have given consent or that misunderstand the legal process (the police won't proceed for a number of reasons usually issues to do with evidence) are not helpful and best uttered silently under your breath if you feel the need, not published in a manner that indicates a lacking in the IQ point department.
As I used to tell kids if the answer is yes then go ahead but if you ask someone to have sex with you and they say MAYBE or NO then the answer is NO!
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